you will continue doing just that tomorrow. good night. ♪ john: better schools aren't happening. >> and now you guys, the rest of these students and parents. john: the education strikes back. you know, this giant ball of in the old jail, the unions, the pta, school board bureaucrats trying to make a change. they say, we don't do that. requisition downtown. it's crazy. john: now this successful schooling. >> please don't close down our schools. john: and it grows as the number of students increased 96%.

administrative staff increase 700%. and yet they want more. but there is good news. when these protesters walked taxpayers save millions. and some to learn. >> it teaches in a fun way. john: the blob verses the kids. that is our show tonight. ♪ >> and now john stossel. ♪ [applause] john: a few public schools have managed to escape most of the constraints of the education, and some of them do a much better job teaching. give us the worst school anywhere in america, and we will take it, and we will outperform the other schools in five years. john: the hard workers year. >> the case in american indian

schools now have some of the highest test scores in california. >> you can do that in the same amount the state gives every school. less. it's true. the students at the american indian charter schools in california a sell, even though the government spends less on them. terrific. but the founders of the schools did not follow the rules. so last month the oakland school board said it would vote on whether to close the school. parents and students bags and not to. >> please don't close down our school. it has enabled me to receive goals i never thought possible. >> reopen. >> i love this school so much. ever since i came i have learned even more than my friends and other open public schools. how can i? my people want to close my new school? john: so they testified. the oakland school board voted to close the schools.

>> you guys are going to lose the students because we're not going to -- you can have maybe 10 percent of these kids getting into decent schools and a plant. the rest of us will get down to a decrepit schools. >> my son has been through your system, the rear school gobblers schools. i have been through them. they're not quality. my son doe with bullying and with teachers that the only recommendation they had was that he could not learn in that learning disabilities. he could tell students committees focused. discipline. now you guys want to take that away from me and the rest of these students. we don't know where our children will go. john: sadly most will probably have to go to the oakland government-run schools which are not as good. we asked members to come on the show and explain why they voted to close those great schools. they said no.

but he said yes. he created the model for those schools. and those people don't like you. some of it, i understand. you are full of yourself, obnoxious, hard to work with. yes. then and then that was a bad start. and then he took some money from the schools. you might have even made to my knowledge that you, for less money, did a better job educating them. some of the money went to you. >> yes. some of the money did get to me. i work for the school. i was paid a salary. i done made it back to the school to use to pay for is to go to college. i also use money to buy space for our students. someone had to step up and get space. we had 34 kids i started. today we have 1200. what is really about is the money. we are taking $20 million per year from zero ust. they want the money back.

john: the obama school board. >> they want a 20 million back. the close the school. john: that's less per kid and they were spending on their own schools. >> no, that is what they get. we get about 10 million. it would get 20 million. on the close our school and get these of order kids back. john: so they would get more money because the charter schools is less. >> did less. so we have for our kids. someone had to step forward. i bought the space. i am on the space. can you imagine, american indian who buys property and must elises? [laughter] john: these are called american indian charter schools because your indian. >> i am american indian. john: as of schools for indians. >> that is against the law. that's against the law. i'm not breaking the law. john: you say the open bureaucrats just want the money and will get more money as they close charters because the state pays more to their lousy schools. but there is more to it than that. you, i'm sure, broke some of the

rules. you did rent them property, you hired your wife, paid her money. you say to save money. maybe it's true, but you're breaking the bureaucracies royals. >> that's very interesting. my wife has paid her company which manages of the school's finances. she charges one pattern 50,000 for three schools. they're paying almost 300,000. yes i hired her. surely didn't save the school under and $50,000. john: you charge to a higher rent and pay its your company. >> adjusted dollar $0.9 a square foot. rental space in the city for a school is $2 to $2.50. a guard that. the problem, the whole thing is here, broke all these rules that they say i did, they say that ign steel. it has been going on for 12 years. i am not arrested. why didn't they arrest me and keep the school open?

a jail the save the school. john: to reserves -- results are phenomenal. number one in oakland. this month the "washington post" said american indian is number one of list of most challenging and schools in america. >> yes, we are the best. i have a big ego, they say. but the reason we are the best as our students and teachers work hard. john: 100 percent of their high-school seniors the last three years or accepted into 4-year colleges. >> and most of them graduated in under three years. [applause] that last public hearing before they voted, here is what some school board member said. >> because the school has high test scores you are asking me to turn my head the other way, a violation of the public trust. >> they have not provided the evidence we asked for and stole money. >> we did not steal a damn thing.

john: so the stealing stuff, you say, arrest me. they work slowly and government. they may come and do that. >> ten years later. this is public propaganda. i have not stolen anything. and if i did steal money -- john: you probably broke some of their rules. >> i hope i did. divided steal anything, don't close the school. his 1200 students. punish me. don't punish the students. one thing i do know, no education and realistic. i had kids to want to get an education and we did not have enough space. i took the bull by the horns, went out and get kids. john: people criticizing you, the local school board, millions in debt. they cannot manage themselves. they had to get $100 million emergency bailout from the state years back. >> american indian has never taken alone. money in the bank. as a matter of fact, the state cut off our funding.

we are still functioning with no money from the state. if you want to help us go to save schools, save schools. we are running a school with no money from the state right now. john: three schools. >> three schools. john: that absolutely certain that the schools will be closed. you are out of the school now, but you will appeal. maybe there's hope. >> we are appealing -- there are appealing to the board of education. hopefully they will look at the evidence. we will see. it is interesting. anyone who wants to see the evidence. twelve years of audits. by cpas. never found any rule that was broken, any money that was missing. school district did not do an audit. they totally ignore the others. john: anybody can drown in these numbers, but the best evidence is that you succeed. you would think that would be the measure.

>> no. there is more money in being a failing school system. you have to close us down. we're doing our job for half the money, and. john: does not have the money if you give 6,000 some for per student in the district is seven dozen. >> but all the money, federal money, special-education, they get up 14,000. john: stay with us. the audience will have a chance to question you later. now that the blood as he knew, it is i refer more. wants to swallow the people would take care of kids outside of school. and once more money spent on their salaries for hiring, even though some already employ more bureaucrats and teachers. is your stay one of them? with state is worse? next. ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you measure happiness? by the armful? by the barrelful? e carful?

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john: when hundreds of union teachers showed up outside my office to yell at me they said, and teachers need more money. teachers were valued and paid

like lawyers are business executives, this would be better. many people believe that. always complaining that we don't spend enough on education. but what he doesn't tell you is that we have, we have tripled per student spending since i was in college to the blue line of the chart. tripled student achievement in math, reading, science. they did not improve. how can that be? what happened to all that money? well, neil mccleskey -- neal mccluskey at the center for education for freedom. what happened to all the money? >> until a lot of things. the biggest thing, huge staffing increases. john: more teachers. >> part of it is more teachers. even more is more administrators , more teachers aides. also, all of that has gone into buildings, unnecessary programs, officers and other things. but just huge across the board. john: and when you talk about bureaucratic bloat, i think you

are comparison, interesting about the ratio of teachers to not teachers. when they spent much more money, they hired a lot of teachers, they hire more administrators. >> love it is just that people in public education love to hire a lot more people. john: like some of these numbers. as 1950 the number of public schools to this group by about 96%. the number of teachers crew by 250%, a big increase. but that is dwarfed by the increase in administrators and other non teaching staff. later by an amazing 700%. >> when you have a government monopoly works for the people employed by the system. in particular, the teachers and administrators association, what is best for them, getting even more people paying dues, growing the power of those unions and administrators association's. john: all these people want to help the kids. they are not evil.

>> said the for the most part people -- they are generally well intentioned. sir, i would like to help people, but the reality is that all people a self interested. let me camino, i want to do a good job but it helps the people don't just give me whenever amount of money ask for. and if they hold me accountable. john: that is automatically going to happen. >> i can't get a job at a company can be like, well, pay me whenever i want. please don't tell me whether i am doing a good job or not. when you have a government monopoly sometimes the most political of the people employed because that is a livelihood, the most motivated to be involved. what did they do? the use that power to say give us lots of money and all as the hon. john: the school principal is quite happy to have more assistant principals, sissy principles, secretaries, social3 workers. that is where a lot of this not teaching comes in. >> and you can understand why the public might like that intuitively. if we spend more on something good and education is did we

give more of it or better. they don't realize that this is a government monopoly in all the incentives are for those people to lobby and say, don't make us to better employees pay us more. they don't realize there not in a free-market. john: some states are worse than others. here is the map. the 21 states that have more administrators and teachers. ohio apparently is the worst. originally virginia was the worst. when this was published this they complained. they say they had misreported their own data to the department of education. >> yes, which i assume they then concluded we need more administrators so we can get these numbers right. john: and according to the new numbers, they're no longer the worst or the 14th worst and now it is a mile. you -- the taxpayers don't know, you probably don't know that american house spends about $14,000 per student. do the math. twenty students, 30 students in

the class, almost half a million dollars. think what you could do with that money. parents don't know and parents don't get the bill. >> says the problem. if you go and buy a service to miss a you want to send the package, you are presented with the cost of doing that. in public schooling the most you will see that you might see your property tax bill. even that, you have the fuse that cost through lots of people who don't have children. also sales taxes. so you don't know the price of all the things you're demanding the sound good. and the worst part is ultimately even a good sounding things don't produce good results. john: thank you. next protest in wisconsin? these people are part of the blob. most remember the teachers' union. they lost this fight. two years later we can see the results. so what are they? so what are they? that's n i'm the world's worst cleaning lady.

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♪ john: in wisconsin two years ago governor walker resisted the demands of those protesters and eventually won at the polls. collective bargaining with things like health insurance. they took away the union's ability to force teachers to pay dues. what has happened since?

good things, says kyle olson new rise the education action group which is following what has been happening. so what happens? >> well, we have seen joyce expand, competition expand. we have seen union drop dramatically. the teachers' union has lost 30 percent of their members. other public-sector unions have lost 60 percent of the members. so what is interesting is when you actually give teachers and public employees a choice, they opt out. john: so before they had to join, the same way i had to join my stupid union here in new york before i came to fox when i worked for abc. mandatory union. everyone has to join. now it is the individual teachers joyce. >> that's right. they can opt out. if it was compulsory. you pay the dues or you pay a percentage of for them to negotiate on your behalf. what happened is when teacher said, do i want to continue

taking that out of my paycheck, do i want to continue funding that organization that does not represent my personal views, many teachers said no. john: now it's unfair to the unions because some will just freeload off of the once you do pay. >> so what they should do is tell those teachers, well, go out and negotiate your own compensation. we have talked to other teachers that would say, please, please let me do that. what i can do is i can, you know, basically defend the positive impact. and what they would do is they would receive the compensation that they deserve for the positive job that they're doing. >> the part of the wisconsin that got the most publicity is the fight over collective bargaining. so, the teachers did not totally lose their right to bargain. they can still bargain over pay, but the loss the right to bargain over things like health insurance. john: a massive huge amounts of money?

>> hundreds of millions of dollars. instead of taking months or even years to negotiate a contract, there are districts that are literally taking 15 minutes to negotiate a contract. but then secondly, the board can actually act as a manager and say, what is in the best interest of our employees? what is in the best interest of our children and school district? they can go out and shop for bids to megabits for health insurance and drive down the cost. john: they did not before. >> no because what would happen is there would negotiate the actual provider at the bargaining table and conveniently the teachers union had its own health insurance entity called wba trust which had a very cozy relationship. john: this is hard to believe. the union, union company with an insurance company. they found it. >> correct the. john: surprise, it turned out this company was expensive. >> that's right. [laughter] what a surprise. once the reforms injecting competition into the situation,

rates dropped. there were districts that saw 50% drop in their health insurance rates simply because there was competition. john: in some ways it is the beauty of competition. it shows, and i'm glad you applaud about clueless the media work, and we usually are in that we did not know what to look for , different health insurance costs. he did nothing that would be an issue. one example, family plan, health costs went up from $1,700 to $1,500. $200 cheaper. >> that's right. and so we hear about obamacare and our own personal rates going up. but right after the law took effect, that school year, 62 percent of district saw a decrease in their rates. john: the same insurance company but now they had competition, so they still say $3 million. >> and that is probably the

perfect point. here you have -- they did not switch companies. a state with the teachers' union preferred company, but because they have competition, suddenly the job the rates. >> the other thing the changed without having to deal with collective bargaining is the use to have to bargain of the rules, the work rules. since these big rowboat -- big it will books. rules about the room temperature and the paint color in the teachers' lounge. >> there were contracts has said what color the teachers lounge had to be. they actually have ranges in the contract of the room temperature for classrooms. these are the sorts of things that they would negotiate over, and it would negotiate for weeks and months over these sorts of things. to me, it shows that this is how the system was set up for adults and not for children. i mean. john: unionized adults.

>> when they are fighting over the paint color whether room temperature, the adults are running the show. the children are coming second. >> thank you. john: thank you. the blob lost in wisconsin. the blood never gives up. now union activists in minnesota wants to force day care workers to join unions. the union spokesman says it will be good for children in day care workers. >> unite to improve the quality of child care, to increase the access for working parents, and to lift our procession. john: left the profession. it sounds good. but holly -- hollee saville says it's not. yet a day care center you run for eight years. so you want to lift the profession? >> i believe we have already lifted the profession, and i am a licensed family child care provider. in my home i own my own business , an independent self-employed business owner. john: they say you and everyone else must unionize. >> that is essentially what

they're doing, trying to force us to unionize. they say that it is -- will be voluntary, representation is not . john: two is they? >> our legislators. john: your governor wants unionization. he issued an executive order to make this happen, saying i am sympathetic to those who think the union, as has been proven in other fields, will lead to better wages, better working conditions demand better benefits. you want to turn that down? >> actually, we did. we beat him. we sudan and successfully one. the judge ordered that he did not have the authority. john: but the legislature has the authority, and they may do it. i'm sure they get contributions from unions and they may do it. >> they have the authority to create laws that follow the constitution. we set our own wages, our own

hours, our own vacation days, our policies. if we think we are underpaid, our job as business owners to raise our rates. there is nothing that cannot trust that we can already do ourselves. john: about $300 per year. you would not have to join. the rule would only apply to day care providers hitch a poor students to give vouchers from the state. maybe that is not. you don't have to take a voucher >> no, you don't. you're limiting the access to high-quality care for children who needed the most. they take 4 million -- the unions would take $4 million per year from minnesota, low-income families to pay for the union. john: in a state that is the rule. they have persuaded legislatures to a union nice day care workers >> actually was 15. a bunch of them kicked the unions out.

they realize that the unions are not fulfilling there promises. there were costing them and the state's money and they were not fulfilling anything that the promised. john: we ask the union lawyer to talk to us. he agreed. the union called him and told them, don't talk to that "stossel" show. keep an eye and what is happening in minnesota. thank you. coming up, who will decide what to teach your kids? we debate that next. ♪ [ engine revving ] ♪ [ male announcer ] every car we build must make adrenaline pump and pulses quicken. ♪ to help you not just stay alive.. but feel alive. the c-class is no exception. it's a mercedes-benz, through and through.

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it shows. we don't run like that. we build john deere equipment the way we always have: the right way. times change. our principles don't. you don't just have our word on it. you've got our name on it. that's how we run. nothing runs like a deere. discover the full line of riding lawn equipment at johndeere.com/howwerun or your local dealer. [applause] john: and the controversy. who will decide what your kids should learn in public schools. every state has different rules.

when school contains nudity is to meet local needs. now there's a movement to standardize. politicians of sinon create something called a common core standards, the same goals for math and english. envy that's a good thing. you would know if kids in one state do better than another. lindsay burke of the heritage foundation says common core is up power grab by the feds and other forms of education blob's striking back, taking more control for itself. notice not. they can agree to uniform standards.

john: 50. >> we all agree they have the right to set their own standard. a group of governors. john: not being crammed down. >> not. there were enticed into adopting college and you're ready standards. >> one competitive grant program, but over 4 billion job to cut $4 billion. >> now we have waivers from notes out left behind which are conditioned in large part upon adoption of komondor standards.

>> is a difference. you can't get it if you don't apply. john: maybe they knew they would not get it. >> is not a requirement. john: let me push back to you. we support choice and charter schools. how can a parent compare state by state unless their is a standardized test, standard as director of? >> we already have a lot of ways for parents to compare. states produce criteria references, let the parents know how well their child has mastered the curriculum. we have all this affirmation. a lack of transparency is another issue that does not merit nationalizing the content that is taught in every local school across the country. >> what's wrong. commodore.

centralization on a grand scale. utterly failing to improve outcomes. no reason to believe it will improve outcomes. it was actually a surprise to a lot of people, ourselves included. john: let's go to what they signed onto. the suggested reading list and @ common core standards you find it epa manuals. executive order 1343, strengthening federal environmental energy transportation management. you know, this is exciting reading in school. the head of each agency shall improve energy efficiency, reduce greenhouse gas emissions. it sounds like marching.

>> you know what the good news, some have opted to do a different reading list. they have a fantastic reading list. and they adopted a common corestates standards. >> states have to adopt 100 percent. -15% and on. if you have any doubt, it is good bye -- >> that is so wrong.

>> most of the techs are actually exactly the kind you want to see like to kill a mockingbird, common-sense, ruby emerson. things that kids are not reading. tremendous amount of research that shows that the average reason. there was one steady it shows that the average reading level of the text being a sign in and americanize "was that the fifth grade reading level. a common core reading list is intended to raise the quality and rigor of the texas senate. they're trying to bring back exactly the text here talking about. i see that as a good thing particularly because the state's absolutely can tinker around the margins and a stolen driver's seat. john: i don't know what you think, but you will get a chance to question both of them later and express your opinion. thank you. coming of. good news. how test see the blog fighting back. and more choice.

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♪ john: we are back with your questions for my guests,

kathleen porter-magee. the porter institute which supports national education standards. lindsey burke of the heritage foundation who opposes them, and the controversial founder of the high-performing american indian charter schools, ben chavis. first from my facebook page. barbara says, would privatizing education using vouchers systems work? >> we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that school choice works. we have a robust body of empirical evidence. you to washington d.c., one of the worst performing schools in the country, kids receive a voucher have a 91 percent graduation rate compared to their peers in the public system john: why don't we have vouchers everywhere? >> we already do. touches of the university system. you can go to georgetown university which is a private school. it's about chair. the best universities in the world. us because we have a voucher system. stall financial aid. universities, the public school

system. john: so you attach some money to the kid. instead of spending 14,000 per student than having a big government monopoly, you say take $10,000, go to any school they want. what if they want to get to the osama bin laden's school of hatred? >> that is their choice from my perspective because what if you choose to go to san francisco state university? simple believe that is the bin laden's school. john: questions from the audience? >> suppose i am a roman catholic orthodoxy juicer for religious reasons i want to send my child to a school the protect my views. i can do that, but have to pay for the but the school. have to pay twice. how is that fair? >> is not. this is why we need to rethink what public education is harry and this goes back. john: it's fair because your opting out of our wonderful

system. >> we need to rethink what public education means. just because we have read the public fund education does not mean government should dictate. it's about moving toward portability of funding and allowing a taxpayer dollars. >> my question is about the core curriculum. >> absolutely no required reading list based on a common core standards. john: the recommendation. john: what are you worried about? >> in favor of how the government wants to project this some people consider executive order is unconstitutional and if there will be studying executive orders what they have to be taught, you

know, theye will be studying executive the way the government wants. >> a great question. one is that the common core standards, the standards we're talking about only to its english and math, so they don't touch science and history, for example. the second thing is -- john: executive orders are in there. that is english. >> executive orders. the recommended reading list. >> i apologize. that is part of it. the other thing, if you have to teach something in a certain way, standards did not dictate how things are taught. schools, districts, teachers, there are still in the driver's seat about how things are taught and how to meet the needs of the kids in front of you. >> a huge impact on the textbooks that are bought, the professional development, all of these things drive curriculum, and right now it is just math and english. back in the 90's we have been here before. this is not the first effort.

they did not have all of these great accomplishments. the u.s. senate rejected 99-1, so we have been here before. john: two is next? >> you ever think of opening up a school with no government involvement whatsoever? >> i do that. i would have one. agra up and in any community where i live now. i have a program every summer, indian kids come. it is a year-round. will we do is former students to graduate from college in three years come back every summer in teach math. john: why not run a real full-time school? >> i love working with cal's. but i have. if they close the school, what will probably do is come out of retirement to move back to

california and open up a private school justified within. john: the students would have to raise the money themselves. $650 a month is what the figure would cost. >> a lot cheaper. that would be around, not just a ten month curriculum is parents working around and we need to get off of this system of ten montts. kids are in school to london 35 days. a complete eight years, their equivalent to what we do in 12 which is why they're kicking are but. john: they don't ended facebook or glue will. we must be doing something right. >> it seems intuitively obvious that competition increases quality. why you suppose the last election since it is so obvious america voted for an increased control -- control, increased socialist tendencies to increase control over our lives, what we do that? >> i don't have a clue about

election. these people a totally stupid, republicans and democrats. john: on that note, thank you. when we return, good news but education. some schools where kids like to learn. ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you measure happiness? by the armful? by the barrelful? e carful? how about...by the bowlful? campbell's soups give you nutrition, energy, and can help you keep a healthy weight. campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do.

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john: the education blob has been weakened some. that is good. the government monopoly has allowed some schools to escape its tight grip and some innovators. some are great, like the school in harlem where they have managed to get so-called address kids to like learning. >> you guys look forward to going to school in the morning? >> yes. >> school is boring. >> no. >> reading his work, but it's

rocking awesome. john: that is awesome to hear. the bad news is that most kids to want to attend that school cannot. that charter as ten applicants for every spot. but, most american schools are nothing like that. most states to almost nothing to help kids escape the monopoly. only 22 states, the ones in yellow, have any sort of voucher program. many of those are narrow. mississippi offer scholarships of kids who can attend private school, but you can attend only if he had dyslexia. the best dates for parent power co according to the center for education reform are indiana, florida, and ohio. but even they offer real choice only to some kids. 55 million students attend school in america. how many get vouchers or tax credits? just 1 million. you can barely see the bar graph on this chart.

only 2 million go to charter schools. this is such a feeble offering of school choice despite good evidence that choice works. this week the friedman foundation released an in-depth analysis of research on choice. twenty-three studies compared to outcomes for students that have school choice. twenty-two found choice improve student performance. twenty-two at 23. one study found no visible impact, no study found a negative impact. choice works. some people of worry that choice these to segregated schools. a studies examine that. seven found school choice moose from more racially segregated schools into less serious ones. one found no effect, no study found that choice increased segregation. the bottom line, when you let parents choose, schools get better, students do better. choice works. let's not let the blob's stop it. and that's our